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<div id="content"> <div class="spacer"></div> <span id="shash-92398"><div class="post" id="post-92398"> <h1><a href="http://trilema.com/2020/forum-logs-for-16-nov-2017/" rel="bookmark" title="Permanent Link to Forum logs for 16 Nov 2017">Forum logs for 16 Nov 2017</a></h1> <div class="date"> Monday, 16 March, Year 12 d.Tr. | Author: <a href="http://trilema.com/author/" title="Posts by "></a> </div>
<div class="entry">
<table style="font-size:1em;width:"580px;">
<tr>
<td><b>BingoBoingo:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> !~ticker --market all </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364668" href="#2364668">01:06</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>jhvh1:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 7222.59, vol: 14684.62002310 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 7220.0, vol: 60507.0461593 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 7210.0, vol: 7585.25528369 | Volume-weighted last average: 7219.54311677 </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364669" href="#2364669">01:06</a>]</font></td>
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<td><b>* BingoBoingo</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> still has more tax law to read, but new rough number is 61.615 USd/week per RU or 267 USd/monthly per RU </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364670" href="#2364670">01:16</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>BingoBoingo:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> Calculated as 2*{[(monthly rack with 22% VAT)/(40 Salable RU)]*(12 Months)}/(52 weeks) </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364671" href="#2364671">01:19</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
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<td><b>BingoBoingo:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> Figure subject to change as more tax law is digested </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364672" href="#2364672">01:19</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>BingoBoingo:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> This is a reduction of ~21.47% over number from last night taken through weekification and de-fxrisking transform. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364673" href="#2364673">01:27</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>BingoBoingo:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> And in latest Pantsuit purge developments pro-muscleman can be victim too <a href="https://archive.is/vjeDN" target=\'_blank\'>https://archive.is/vjeDN</a> </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364674" href="#2364674">01:49</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>apeloyee:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> <a href="http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739374" target=\'_blank\'>http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739374</a> << can you enlighten us about why you believe there's no way to use information about range of factors (because you say so?), and about the <a href="http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739371" target=\'_blank\'>http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739371</a> as regards the number field sieve, as this doesn't seem to be published (or perharps for quadratic sieve). elliptic curve does benefit from smaller factors, but if the... </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364675" href="#2364675">06:27</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><font color="gray">a111:</font></td>
<td class="breakup"><font color="gray"> Logged on 2017-11-15 23:45 asciilifeform: nope. </font></td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364676" href="#2364676">06:27</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><font color="gray">a111:</font></td>
<td class="breakup"><font color="gray"> Logged on 2017-11-15 23:43 asciilifeform: and the difficulty of breaking rsa via known methods is proportional to the size of the smallest prime. you oughta know that. </font></td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364677" href="#2364677">06:27</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>apeloyee:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> ...factors differ only a few bits in length, it doesn't appear to be better than NFS. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364678" href="#2364678">06:27</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>apeloyee:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> <a href="http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739383" target=\'_blank\'>http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739383</a> << you can just use 4096*4096 multiplies. It's lulzy to see how you rant about "proper" rsa and demand full-size exponents, but somehow restricting range of p and q is OK. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364679" href="#2364679">06:30</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><font color="gray">a111:</font></td>
<td class="breakup"><font color="gray"> Logged on 2017-11-15 23:59 asciilifeform: at any rate this is a quite pointless imho discussion, we will NOT be reintroducing normalized integer braindamage. </font></td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364680" href="#2364680">06:30</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> <a href="http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739412" target=\'_blank\'>http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739412</a> << i don't think anything besides the stringing of words is seriously contemplated. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364681" href="#2364681">08:13</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><font color="gray">a111:</font></td>
<td class="breakup"><font color="gray"> Logged on 2017-11-16 03:30 asciilifeform: ( reading the linked item, it would be impossible to infer that it is ~not~ one ) </font></td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364682" href="#2364682">08:13</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> <a href="http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739424" target=\'_blank\'>http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739424</a> << is the first figure with customer's gear and the second with yours ? </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364683" href="#2364683">08:14</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><font color="gray">a111:</font></td>
<td class="breakup"><font color="gray"> Logged on 2017-11-16 06:16 BingoBoingo still has more tax law to read, but new rough number is 61.615 USd/week per RU or 267 USd/monthly per RU </font></td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364684" href="#2364684">08:14</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> ah sorry my bad, week/month nm </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364685" href="#2364685">08:14</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> im getting at least 4, so. proceed. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364686" href="#2364686">08:15</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> <a href="http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739432" target=\'_blank\'>http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739432</a> << factors differing by only a few bits in length aren't particularily unsafe, which is why the original alt-rsa spec involved them (see eg <a href="http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-14#1697613" target=\'_blank\'>http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-14#1697613</a> and the eventual end of that discussion.) </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364687" href="#2364687">08:19</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><font color="gray">a111:</font></td>
<td class="breakup"><font color="gray"> Logged on 2017-11-16 11:27 apeloyee: ...factors differ only a few bits in length, it doesn't appear to be better than NFS. </font></td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364688" href="#2364688">08:19</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><font color="gray">a111:</font></td>
<td class="breakup"><font color="gray"> Logged on 2017-08-14 17:21 mircea_popescu: tmsr rsa standard key is 515 bits, made out of a 257 and a 258 bit long prime. </font></td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364689" href="#2364689">08:19</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> factors that are very small are trivially a vulnerability, as the 17 example shows. what is "small enough" is somewhat of an open question, but 512 BITS does conceiovably qualify. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364690" href="#2364690">08:20</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> there's no argument that informations about range of factors CAN be used. the point is minorily that a) a range of 2045 bits is sufficient and majorily that b) should this range NOT be sufficient, the correct response is to extend IT, rather than to introduce key-substitute mechanisms in the actual encryption scheme. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364691" href="#2364691">08:21</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> ie, "you have the following information about any and all factors : they're 11 led, 1 terminated, 2045 true random bits. knock yourself out." </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364692" href="#2364692">08:22</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> yes, in about 6% of cases the N will come out as 111..., in which case you know that both p and q are actually 1111 1111 led, ie you'll have 2 bits of each. and in 0.001% of cases N will led by FF and have the next bit set, so you'll know both p and q have the first octet set. if you have an extension attack allowing you to parlay 8 leading bits into the prime exposure, you can thereby crack rsa in 0.001% of cases. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364693" href="#2364693">08:26</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> as far as anyone knows, something closer to 450 bits is what's actually needed. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364694" href="#2364694">08:26</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> this whole thing aside, the only objection to <a href="http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739433" target=\'_blank\'>http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739433</a> ie, "produce sets of 2048 bits, check them for primality, if they're prime multiply them and if the product is a suitable N keep them else start over" was <a href="http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737682" target=\'_blank\'>http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737682</a> </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364695" href="#2364695">08:29</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><font color="gray">a111:</font></td>
<td class="breakup"><font color="gray"> Logged on 2017-11-16 11:30 apeloyee: <a href="http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739383" target=\'_blank\'>http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739383</a> << you can just use 4096*4096 multiplies. It's lulzy to see how you rant about "proper" rsa and demand full-size exponents, but somehow restricting range of p and q is OK. </font></td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364696" href="#2364696">08:29</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><font color="gray">a111:</font></td>
<td class="breakup"><font color="gray"> Logged on 2017-11-14 15:01 mircea_popescu: <a href="http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737387" target=\'_blank\'>http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737387</a> << this is alternatively a perfectly acceptable approach expensive as all fuck though. prolly should be the standard for homemade keys. </font></td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364697" href="#2364697">08:29</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> it may appear beneficial to instead produce larger sets, such as of 4096 bits. the UPPER BOUND of the gain from this process is known the lower bound of losses from it is not known, because yes if you allow 4096 bit p, q and test, an acceptable N can be composed of the product between 17 and 2^4092 - 177 or whatever it was. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364698" href="#2364698">08:38</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> so logically if indeed the larger upper bound was deemed useful we'd move the standard to 8192 bits N with 4096 bit p/q rather than do this. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364699" href="#2364699">08:38</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> aaand in other lulz, <a href="https://blog.josefsson.org/2016/11/03/why-i-dont-use-2048-or-4096-rsa-key-sizes/" target=\'_blank\'>https://blog.josefsson.org/2016/11/03/why-i-dont-use-2048-or-4096-rsa-key-sizes/</a> </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364700" href="#2364700">08:57</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> cultivated enough to mention bernstein&gf curve, uncomprehending enough to "post quantum algorithms". how do these happen, i wish to know. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364701" href="#2364701">09:00</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> other lulz, same source : <a href="https://blog.josefsson.org/2017/08/03/vikings-d16-server-first-impressions/" target=\'_blank\'>https://blog.josefsson.org/2017/08/03/vikings-d16-server-first-impressions/</a> (apparently there's an entire kanzure 's wanker club dedicated to republican hosting vikings.net and whatnot. doesn't seem to be actually working though, but i did join their irc, see what happens. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364702" href="#2364702">09:09</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> <a href="http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739429" target=\'_blank\'>http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739429</a> << forget public nfsieve. consider ordinary bruteforce ('but how brute force for soomanybits??!' ) on novel physical substrate, or with a heuristic that lets you skip large chunks of space </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364703" href="#2364703">09:21</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><font color="gray">a111:</font></td>
<td class="breakup"><font color="gray"> Logged on 2017-11-16 11:27 apeloyee: <a href="http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739374" target=\'_blank\'>http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739374</a> << can you enlighten us about why you believe there's no way to use information about range of factors (because you say so?), and about the <a href="http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739371" target=\'_blank\'>http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739371</a> as regards the number field sieve, as this doesn't seem to be published (or perharps for quadratic sieve). elliptic curve does benefit from smaller factors, but if the... </font></td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364704" href="#2364704">09:21</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> 'state of the art' means ANY attack that i can describe. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364705" href="#2364705">09:22</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> or consider something as simple as phuctor, that already has a lot of "special" primes, however you define special (small, common, whatevewr) </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364706" href="#2364706">09:22</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> aaha. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364707" href="#2364707">09:22</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> the importance of a phuctor style primorial+commonkeyset gcding away is somehow easily overlooked by academic minds. but in practical terms it is the first line, degree (or even two!) ahead of haskelism a la gnfs </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364708" href="#2364708">09:23</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> <a href="http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739433" target=\'_blank\'>http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739433</a> << lol next this fella will say, i suspect, 'why do you restrict the range of N' </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364709" href="#2364709">09:23</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><font color="gray">a111:</font></td>
<td class="breakup"><font color="gray"> Logged on 2017-11-16 11:30 apeloyee: <a href="http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739383" target=\'_blank\'>http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739383</a> << you can just use 4096*4096 multiplies. It's lulzy to see how you rant about "proper" rsa and demand full-size exponents, but somehow restricting range of p and q is OK. </font></td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364710" href="#2364710">09:23</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> asciilifeform incidentally, bernstein's curve implementation is ALSO free of branching on secret bits, have you seen that thing ? </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364711" href="#2364711">09:24</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> which one </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364712" href="#2364712">09:25</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> he has a buncha </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364713" href="#2364713">09:25</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> <a href="http://ed25519.cr.yp.to/software.html" target=\'_blank\'>http://ed25519.cr.yp.to/software.html</a> </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364714" href="#2364714">09:26</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> not entirely clear yet if he just AIMED to avoid all secret bit branching or actulaly managed. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364715" href="#2364715">09:26</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> but the attempt is evident. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364716" href="#2364716">09:26</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> i only see pyturds </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364717" href="#2364717">09:26</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> yes. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364718" href="#2364718">09:26</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> crypto in a gclang is an absurdity </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364719" href="#2364719">09:26</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> yes. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364720" href="#2364720">09:27</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> not discussing that part. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364721" href="#2364721">09:27</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> of course it branches on seekritz </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364722" href="#2364722">09:27</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> or hm you were prolly thinking of the asm one </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364723" href="#2364723">09:27</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> here, worth pasting : <a href="http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/UFtzz/?raw=true" target=\'_blank\'>http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/UFtzz/?raw=true</a> </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364724" href="#2364724">09:27</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> consider it pseudocode </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364725" href="#2364725">09:27</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> if e & 1: t = (t*b) % m </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364726" href="#2364726">09:28</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> it ain't pseudocode for anything useful </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364727" href="#2364727">09:28</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> hater. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364728" href="#2364728">09:28</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> exp is not secret </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364729" href="#2364729">09:29</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>* asciilifeform</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> not much into eccism, regards its presence in btc as a bug </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364730" href="#2364730">09:30</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> <a href="http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739455" target=\'_blank\'>http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739455</a> << not so surprising, considering that bernstein himself is a quantumist </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364731" href="#2364731">09:31</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><font color="gray">a111:</font></td>
<td class="breakup"><font color="gray"> Logged on 2017-11-16 14:00 mircea_popescu: cultivated enough to mention bernstein&gf curve, uncomprehending enough to "post quantum algorithms". how do these happen, i wish to know. </font></td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364732" href="#2364732">09:31</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>diana_coman:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> asciilifeform, what is "eccism" ? </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364733" href="#2364733">09:32</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> elliptic curve based crypto </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364734" href="#2364734">09:32</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> diana_coman: elliptic curve cipher </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364735" href="#2364735">09:32</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>diana_coman:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> ah, thanks </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364736" href="#2364736">09:33</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> <a href="http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739454" target=\'_blank\'>http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739454</a> << pretty deep lol , 'I chose a RSA key size of 3925 for my blog' and d00d dun seem to realize that it's exactly a 4096b modulus wit 171 leading zeros ... </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364737" href="#2364737">09:34</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><font color="gray">a111:</font></td>
<td class="breakup"><font color="gray"> Logged on 2017-11-16 13:57 mircea_popescu: aaand in other lulz, <a href="https://blog.josefsson.org/2016/11/03/why-i-dont-use-2048-or-4096-rsa-key-sizes/" target=\'_blank\'>https://blog.josefsson.org/2016/11/03/why-i-dont-use-2048-or-4096-rsa-key-sizes/</a> </font></td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364738" href="#2364738">09:34</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> aha </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364739" href="#2364739">09:34</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> exactly in the vein above. "understands how to add, thinks 4>5." </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364740" href="#2364740">09:35</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> how the fuck. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364741" href="#2364741">09:35</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> it's like penis cage for the brain, somehow. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364742" href="#2364742">09:35</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> by refusing to add. 'i'm too clean to touch a shovel' is the likely pathology. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364743" href="#2364743">09:35</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> in other ongoing lulzvelopments, <a href="http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/kP8vH/?raw=true" target=\'_blank\'>http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/kP8vH/?raw=true</a> </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364744" href="#2364744">09:36</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> crowdfunding lol </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364745" href="#2364745">09:36</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> got 3-4k together so far. but they do seem vaguely promising, maybe. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364746" href="#2364746">09:37</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> if can be cleanned enough always a dubious proposition in english speakers. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364747" href="#2364747">09:37</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> folx without ideology are like dodo. simply waiting for the ship fulla dogs to land. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364748" href="#2364748">09:37</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>diana_coman:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> PeterL, did you test your permutation step functions on that keccak implementation? when I feed rho a full-zero state it seems to end up with non-zero output </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364749" href="#2364749">09:37</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> diana_coman: interesting, and it still passed the test vectors despite this ?? </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364750" href="#2364750">09:39</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>diana_coman:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> asciilifeform, serpent passed the test vectors!! </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364751" href="#2364751">09:39</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>diana_coman:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> NOT keccak serpent </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364752" href="#2364752">09:39</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>diana_coman:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> now torturing keccak and... </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364753" href="#2364753">09:39</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> aaaa </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364754" href="#2364754">09:40</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> did it pass any others ? </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364755" href="#2364755">09:40</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>diana_coman:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> mircea_popescu, well, he had those step functions private so initially inaccessible so first I've tried a full test (i.e. input is this, do full keccak round, output should be this): it failed so then I grunted through exposing the step functions at least at this stage and testing bit by bit </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364756" href="#2364756">09:42</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> and first one failed ? </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364757" href="#2364757">09:42</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>diana_coman:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> rho step is second,what can I say first one passed, yes (theta) </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364758" href="#2364758">09:42</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> aha. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364759" href="#2364759">09:42</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>diana_coman:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> rho uses that Rotate_Left function which is imported from gnat I'd rather not have it in a reference implementation tbh </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364760" href="#2364760">09:53</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>diana_coman:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> I guess I'll test that one now... </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364761" href="#2364761">09:53</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> diana_coman: how do you propose to rotate without it ? as i see it, the language standard simply has a rotate-shaped hole in it </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364762" href="#2364762">09:54</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>diana_coman:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> asciilifeform, I don't yet know the answer to that I'm still eating Ada so I can't decide either way still, I don't ...like it, that's all I said perhaps there is no solution to it, perhaps there is one </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364763" href="#2364763">09:57</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> afaik there isn't a proper solution. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364764" href="#2364764">09:59</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> it's a single fucking cpu instruction on ~all known cpu. and yet some wrecker saw it fit to exclude it from the language standard. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364765" href="#2364765">10:01</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> exactly same nonsense as the carry flag thing </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364766" href="#2364766">10:01</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> motherfuckers, there is not a single comp made in 40 years that doesn't have a carry flag. WHY YOU HID IT </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364767" href="#2364767">10:02</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> it's infuriating </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364768" href="#2364768">10:02</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> gcc offers a built-in rotate 'illicitly', but not a portable access to carry flag. because ALSO run by wreckers. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364769" href="#2364769">10:03</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> result is a 4x slower ffa. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364770" href="#2364770">10:03</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> ('use asm' is not an answer, i want, as diana_coman wants, a PORTABLE proggy ) </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364771" href="#2364771">10:04</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> diana_coman: the sad fact re gnat is that it is in fact the only ada. being as the 'alternatives' are, without exception, closed winturds. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364772" href="#2364772">10:07</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>diana_coman:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> asciilifeform, yes, portable is the rub there I'll read more on ada for now, nothing much to add atm </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364773" href="#2364773">10:16</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> <a href="http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739520" target=\'_blank\'>http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739520</a> << we can afford to inline asm, seeing how minigame knows what iron it runs it on. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364774" href="#2364774">10:19</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><font color="gray">a111:</font></td>
<td class="breakup"><font color="gray"> Logged on 2017-11-16 15:01 asciilifeform: exactly same nonsense as the carry flag thing </font></td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364775" href="#2364775">10:19</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> as a forinstance. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364776" href="#2364776">10:19</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> discussion was re 'reference implementation' </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364777" href="#2364777">10:20</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> naturally on particular iron you can asm </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364778" href="#2364778">10:20</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> hey, minigame produced reference implementation of ada keccak can well contain inline asm rotation, and who dun like it can do whatever they will. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364779" href="#2364779">10:20</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> reference means "what works for me" not "what works for others". </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364780" href="#2364780">10:20</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> 'reference' has no business baking in whatever quirks of intelism, known & unknown </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364781" href="#2364781">10:21</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> not per se. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364782" href="#2364782">10:21</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> but reference also has no business baking in whatever quirks of "human rights & the fyotoor", known & unknown. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364783" href="#2364783">10:21</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> imho if you're gonna have asm, may as well write whole thing in it </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364784" href="#2364784">10:22</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> just as reference implementation will bake in FG, and users of others are responsible for others' quirks. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364785" href="#2364785">10:22</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> whereas the point of using an algorithmic lang is readability & portability. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364786" href="#2364786">10:22</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> where feasible. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364787" href="#2364787">10:22</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> FG is a straight serial device tho, it doesn't lock you into any particular form </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364788" href="#2364788">10:22</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> irrespective. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364789" href="#2364789">10:23</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> iirc diana_coman simply opens /dev/ttywherever and reads. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364790" href="#2364790">10:23</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> aaand asm rotate is a straight asm item, it doesn't lock you etcetera. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364791" href="#2364791">10:23</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> "oh but mp, other people do it via shortwave radio" "good for them." </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364792" href="#2364792">10:23</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> lol </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364793" href="#2364793">10:23</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>diana_coman:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> aand found the bug at least on this one: rho initialises Ar(0,0) BUT uses then first thing...Ar(1,0) </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364794" href="#2364794">10:23</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> diana_coman: PeterL by his own admission didn't test the thing at all </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364795" href="#2364795">10:24</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> i suppose ye age olde "i didn't know there was interest" at play. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364796" href="#2364796">10:24</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> i'm a little surprised that any part of it worked. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364797" href="#2364797">10:24</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>diana_coman:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> asciilifeform, it is straightforward from algo descriptions in the reference </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364798" href="#2364798">10:24</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> evidently not straightforward enuff.. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364799" href="#2364799">10:25</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>diana_coman:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> the ref is quite good in this respect I'd say, not that hard to follow </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364800" href="#2364800">10:25</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>diana_coman:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> well, they did not give you the init of variables wtf! </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364801" href="#2364801">10:25</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> returning to <a href="http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739533" target=\'_blank\'>http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739533</a> , i will point out that inline asm is ~likewise~ a gcc-specific syntax. so if you're marrying gcc you may as well use the existing ( as seen in ffa ) rotate intrinsic. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364802" href="#2364802">10:26</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><font color="gray">a111:</font></td>
<td class="breakup"><font color="gray"> Logged on 2017-11-16 15:20 mircea_popescu: hey, minigame produced reference implementation of ada keccak can well contain inline asm rotation, and who dun like it can do whatever they will. </font></td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364803" href="#2364803">10:26</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> maybe i didn't make the inline incantation sufficiently magical, but anyway. "straight asm", what'd you prefer. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364804" href="#2364804">10:27</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> if yer doing a great deal of hashing , straight asm could be a win </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364805" href="#2364805">10:27</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> "rotation can be directly an opcode item linked as such", how about that. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364806" href="#2364806">10:27</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> tbh, this item aside (it was just given as an ~example~ anyway), i do not expect that on the medium term we will be able to avoid "and here's the special asm library, links at link time with the rest of compiled shit" situations. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364807" href="#2364807">10:29</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> afaik lisp never actually avoided this either. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364808" href="#2364808">10:30</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>hanbot:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> meanwhile, what do you call a frenchman wearing sandals? </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364809" href="#2364809">10:31</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> a... hm. a vandal ? </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364810" href="#2364810">10:31</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>hanbot:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> Phillipe Phillope </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364811" href="#2364811">10:31</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> ahahaha\ </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364812" href="#2364812">10:31</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> <a href="http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739542" target=\'_blank\'>http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739542</a> << this is particularily hysterical given the <a href="http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=pl2303x" target=\'_blank\'>http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=pl2303x</a> lulz. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364813" href="#2364813">10:33</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><font color="gray">a111:</font></td>
<td class="breakup"><font color="gray"> Logged on 2017-11-16 15:22 asciilifeform: FG is a straight serial device tho, it doesn't lock you into any particular form </font></td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364814" href="#2364814">10:33</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> meanwhile in parkour, <a href="http://78.media.tumblr.com/494e71a43850359399171b48966b1dea/tumblr_nl5dlpOjCh1up90kvo1_1280.jpg" target=\'_blank\'>http://78.media.tumblr.com/494e71a43850359399171b48966b1dea/tumblr_nl5dlpOjCh1up90kvo1_1280.jpg</a> </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364815" href="#2364815">10:41</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> i dun make the pl2303 or the related rubbishes </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364816" href="#2364816">10:44</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> my personal fg is plugged into a serial port. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364817" href="#2364817">10:44</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> ( and is made of junkyard parts, given as the actual FG stock is s.nsa inventory, lol ) </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364818" href="#2364818">10:44</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> <a href="http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739561" target=\'_blank\'>http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739561</a> << possibly i mentioned this, i am making an asm ffa in parallel with the ada item </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364819" href="#2364819">10:46</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><font color="gray">a111:</font></td>
<td class="breakup"><font color="gray"> Logged on 2017-11-16 15:29 mircea_popescu: tbh, this item aside (it was just given as an ~example~ anyway), i do not expect that on the medium term we will be able to avoid "and here's the special asm library, links at link time with the rest of compiled shit" situations. </font></td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364820" href="#2364820">10:46</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> but the latter is to be the reference, and the former -- i 'hand compile' ~from~ the reference </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364821" href="#2364821">10:46</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> asciilifeform how do you think anyh of that is relevant ? </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364822" href="#2364822">10:50</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> "my personal fg is plugged into serial port and my personal ada keccak is plugged into iron on which asm works". da fuck special pleading is this. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364823" href="#2364823">10:51</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>apeloyee:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> <a href="http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739523" target=\'_blank\'>http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739523</a> << <a href="http://www.ada-auth.org/standards/rm12_w_tc1/html/RM-B-2.html" target=\'_blank\'>http://www.ada-auth.org/standards/rm12_w_tc1/html/RM-B-2.html</a> </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364824" href="#2364824">10:59</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><font color="gray">a111:</font></td>
<td class="breakup"><font color="gray"> Logged on 2017-11-16 15:03 asciilifeform: gcc offers a built-in rotate 'illicitly', but not a portable access to carry flag. because ALSO run by wreckers. </font></td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364825" href="#2364825">10:59</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>apeloyee:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> it's a part of the standard, but, sadly, optional. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364826" href="#2364826">11:01</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>apeloyee:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> however... </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364827" href="#2364827">11:01</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>apeloyee:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> !#s alternatives to gnat </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364828" href="#2364828">11:01</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><font color="gray">a111:</font></td>
<td class="breakup"><font color="gray"> 1 result for "alternatives to gnat", <a href="http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=alternatives%20to%20gnat" target=\'_blank\'>http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=alternatives%20to%20gnat</a> </font></td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364829" href="#2364829">11:01</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> mircea_popescu: rs232 is a 1960s standard, and doesn't go away simply because wintel stopped including the plug on the mobo. and world's simplest and most widely-supported standard for digital comms, moar so than ethernet ( i have whole pile of devices with 0 nic but several serialports ) , and will remain, regardless of what wintel does. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364830" href="#2364830">11:09</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> so i dun see how 'special plead' </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364831" href="#2364831">11:09</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> apeloyee: i never grasped the lunacy of 'standard with optional pieces' </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364832" href="#2364832">11:09</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> back to rs232 -- it's the lingua franca . not the most snobbish ibm mainframe (which even eschewed ascii) , nor the most orcish bk0010 , nobody, ever omitted serial port. until 2010s, obummer-era pc junk. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364833" href="#2364833">11:15</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> if you dun have serial, you dun have a comp, in entirely the same way that if you cannot read latin letters you are not literate. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364834" href="#2364834">11:16</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> ( nitpickers will note that rs232 implies particular voltages . and yes, you need a voltage converter to use ttl (e.g. fg) with actual rs232. which is inevitable, because i did not want to put a 200kHz-oscillating 5v to plusminus12v chip on fg. ) </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364835" href="#2364835">11:19</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> you likewise need exactly same voltage converter for pogo , and most other small devices. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364836" href="#2364836">11:19</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> but the logical protocol is classical rs232, 115200/8/1/noparity. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364837" href="#2364837">11:20</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> to try to make analogy between world's single most supported electrical standard after 220v mains socket, and intel turdolade, is beyond ludicrous. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364838" href="#2364838">11:21</a>]</font></td>
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<td><b>* asciilifeform</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> bbl, meat </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364839" href="#2364839">11:25</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>apeloyee:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> motherfuckers, there is not a single comp made in 40 years that doesn't have a carry flag. << *excluding non-actual computers. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364840" href="#2364840">11:32</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>apeloyee:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> risc-v wreckers specified no carry flag, for instance </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364841" href="#2364841">11:41</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>apeloyee:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> on novel physical substrate << you must be designing not just post-quantum, but post-thermodynamic crypto. :P </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364842" href="#2364842">11:56</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> asciilifeform and "asm rot" is a standard etc. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364843" href="#2364843">12:02</a>]</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> "doesn't go away just because intel stops including it" to ~same degree. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364844" href="#2364844">12:02</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> to put the point on its proper footing : convention is convention, no different than any other convention. convention doth not become physical law through wide adoption, irrespective how extensive that wideness, in headcount, time, whatever. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364845" href="#2364845">12:06</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> if the convention can be "you'll need a serial capable machine", as it HAS to can be, then convention can also be "you'll need a cpu with ror/rol implemnented". whether it is decided to make it so has no bearing on whether it could be decided to make it so. that's a 1 : it could be. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364846" href="#2364846">12:07</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> and so back to the original, there can't "not be alternatives" to gnat. leaving aside the in principle argument, there's alternative by example : expose the cpu instruction and woe to anyone who won't/can't/doesn't. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364847" href="#2364847">12:09</a>]</font></td>
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<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> and dang, why is this bch so totally taking over! </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364848" href="#2364848">12:16</a>]</font></td>
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<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> mircea_popescu: point is, that is no longer an ada proggy. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364849" href="#2364849">12:26</a>]</font></td>
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<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> you lose the guarantees. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364850" href="#2364850">12:27</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> well, the part that's ada is ada and the part that dun work or isn't wanted in ada... isn't ada. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364851" href="#2364851">12:27</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> just like irl. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364852" href="#2364852">12:27</a>]</font></td>
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<tr>
<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> gcc or w/e you use as a compiler,. for instance, also not an ada proggy. ada dun even try what lisp tried and failed to obtain, ie, a full universe. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364853" href="#2364853">12:28</a>]</font></td>
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<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> aaactually </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364854" href="#2364854">12:28</a>]</font></td>
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<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> yes yes </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364855" href="#2364855">12:28</a>]</font></td>
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<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> gnat is an ada proggy. </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364856" href="#2364856">12:28</a>]</font></td>
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<td><b>mircea_popescu:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> (and provides its own inline asm too) </td>
<td><font color="gray">[<a id="2364857" href="#2364857">12:28</a>]</font></td>
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<td><b>asciilifeform:</b></td>
<td class="breakup"> but as we discussed in old thread, the single most serious problem of ada, is that it is quite difficult to implement an adatron. esp if you actually go for standard compliance. </td>